When the godless become greater than the Hindu gods

I am an admitted Vedic supremacist, the Vedas are the highest authority on earth and all other teachings are inferior because the they lead humans to inferior power and truth, the Vedas are infallible because they admit they are fallible, they want us to find the true path to become gods. However there has always been something in the Vedas which has disturbed me and has made me feel queasy inside and that is the constant call for the murder of sorcerers and the "godless". Now the injunctions against the "godless" always confused me as the Vedas are very clear that the gods did not create the universe and are not the ultimate power, they were made out of the unknowable substance of the universe, Brahman, which is sort of like the Greek chaos. Since we don't know what the Brahman is, not even the gods know, it could be unaware, it could just be math, indeed the creator of the universe could be nothing and so Atheism is philosophically acceptable; what did they mean "godless"? As for sorcery I have always resonated with sorcery, especially sorceresses; one of the reasons I hate the Bible is because it calls for the murder of all sorcerers and holds sorcery as one the greatest sins.  I could not help but feel for the sorcerers and the Vedas and deep down inside, as I had known with the Bible, I knew I was one of them. Now I have never been one to abandon a religion I think is true just because it does not line up with my personality.  If I believed Christianity were true and good I would never leave just because I am a homosexual, I would have admitted my weakness and remained faithful.

Now I will get to godlessness in a while but I came to wonder what exactly the Vedas considered sorcery as the Bible defines sorcery very well.  As the New Testament of the Bible was written in Greek this brings us back to the Greek word that was used for sorcery, "pharmakia" or drug use.  The Bible's definition for sorcery can best be described as using drugs to foresee the future and to find ways to bend the universe to your will. The Israelites defined the use of drugs by the oracles and witches of Greece as sorcery.  This tickled my mind because by this definition the Vedic priests who used the stimulating drug Soma to perform their rituals would be sorcerers. Obviously the definition for sorcery in the Bible and the Vedas had to be different, I wanted to know the Veda's exact definition for sorcery. This brought me back to ancient Greece as the Christian scriptures were first written in Greek and so it was obviously firstly appealed to the Greek speaking population, but did this definition of drug use as sorcery exactly relate to the Greek pagan concept of sorcery?  I wanted to know what the Greeks considered sorcery as I believed this would be more related to the Veda's definition.

Witchcraft had an odd role to play in ancient Greek culture, Hecate was the goddess of witchcraft who was perhaps most associated with herbs and poisonous plants which her followers would sometimes combine and consume to alter their minds. The majority of Hecate's followers were women; romantic images depict them as beautiful wholesome young maids circling around a toxin smoking vessel and engaging in ritual in perpetual solitude, though perhaps more realistic though Christian inspired are the images of the old witch who has grown old and alone, helplessly addicted to the psychoactive smoke which she breaths.  While this practice of "witchcraft" was often frowned upon and ostracized, it was not completely illegal and it was common for all men and women to seek the advice of a witch while she was intoxicated. But the witches use of drugs could not be the definition of what made her a witch because others engaged in this process.

The witch of course was always distinguished from the oracle who also took part in drug use to prophecy but whose practice was officially incorporate into the state religion.  It is generally believed that an educated young man or woman would be seated over a chasm in the earth which was known to release a psychoactive gas, like the witch the oracle used his/her altered state along with his or her knowledge to provide information to the highest kings and most influential people of the land. Oracles also dedicated their lives to gods, but gods of prophecy like Apollo, and not gods of herbs and tinctures, implying they knew little of the nature of the gas drug  they were inhaling but had been educated more in the natural truths known the humankind.  While the oracle held a much higher position than the witch it was admitted that her service to the gods shortened her life. Both witches and oracles used drugs to obtain seemingly supernatural powers, so this could not be the distinguishing factor for the Greeks. 

But we know that not all sorceresses involved themselves in smoke nor destroyed themselves through constant drug induced prophecy. Medea was not only a high priestess of Hecate but also the daughter of a Greek king. Like her counterparts Medea was known to be a mistress of tinctures and poisons and she used these to not only kill her father to protect and flee with her lover Jason but to also eventually murder their children in revenge for Jason leaving her for another woman, her continuing power illustrated as she escapes from the city in a chariot pulled by dragons.  Another sorceress known for her knowledge of herbs and poisons was Circle who was said to be a daughter of Hecate. While, like Medea, she could be more than helpful if she wanted to be, she could also be cruel by turning men into animals and enslaving them on her island. Circle's complicated status as a sorceress is detailed in a myth where she is invited to the court of King Picus, however, upon rejecting her advances she turns him into a woodpecker. Sorceresses are obviously a perplexing combination of good and evil, useful but dangerous. However, unlike in Judeo-Christianity they are not banned or commanded to be murdered. Did the Greeks have any true definition for what they would consider absolutely unacceptable "black magic", was there any class of people among them they would fear and hate so much they would hunt them down and kill them, and could this be related back to the Vedas?

Before we bring this into the Vedas and Hinduism, there is a peculiar set of events which take place in Greco-Roman history surrounding the philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras. Pythagoras is today known for his mathematical genius and his discovery of several mathematical formulas, but what seems to be not taught to the general public is that mathematics encompassed only a small part of Pythagoras' life.  Born in Greece, form a young age Pythagoras was considered to be not only an extreme genius but a very kind and sociable person, in the early part of his life he was described as being very well liked and respected.  Not only was Pythagoras a mathematical prodigy he also had an intense interest in religion and the occult. After exhausting the knowledge of his Greek city state he began to travel all around the Mediterranean and perhaps as far as India to absorb their knowledge of math but perhaps even more so their esoteric doctrines.  It is believed that Pythagoras spent the greatest time and studied the deepest the now extinct Orphic religion of Egypt. Orphism actually contains many elements related to modern Hinduism, it was believed that humans were perfect immortal souls but were doomed for a period of time to reincarnate until they had perfected their being through a life series of rituals.  Orphism does believe in the gods as their religion did speak of their origins, however the Orphic religion focused much more on the rituals necessary to obtain immortality so that one could join the gods and less on the worship of them. Orphism was most noted for its secrecy, the rituals needed in order to escape reincarnation and obtain an immortal place among the gods were very carefully hidden.  It is important to know that while Orphism was regarded with suspicion as all mystery religions are, it did not generally provoke violence from the tolerant pagan Greeks, in fact many of its teaching were believed to have come from Greece.

After completing his world tour Pythagoras returned to Greece where he began to set up communities based upon the religious, esoteric and scientific information he had gained from many of the known world's capitals. Pythagoras eventually founded his own religion which today is known as Pythagoreanism. Like the Orphic religion, Pythagoreanism was based in extreme secrecy. While Pythagoras made public his mathematical discoveries, he claimed to have esoteric and irrational knowledge pertaining to the nature of the universe and the formula for obtaining immortality, this included a seemingly incoherent understanding of the nature of numbers and music.  As a youth, like Pythagoras, I was exceedingly interested in the occult but my focus was on numerology which is non-scientific and mystic understanding of numbers. Now we cannot know for sure as Pythagoreanism was exclusively covert and what you will soon see was also driven underground and eventually all but extinguished, but the numerology I learned was supposedly the teachings of Pythagoras.  Now I do have a strong reason to believe the school of numerology I studied did have some accuracy because is it believed that Hinduism had a strong cultural effect on ancient Egypt and the Orphic religion, but it is also possible that Pythagoras did indeed go to India to study.  The connection was made when I converted to Hinduism and eventually came across Hindu numerology,  I only needed to glance over it to realize I had no need to study it, the Hindu system of numerology and the numerology I learned of Pythagoras were almost identical. But there was one interesting difference, Pythagorean numerology had not gods and Hindu numerology did.

Pythagoras made his students go through extensive periods of ritual cleansing such as what some say was even years of absolute silence before he would teach them anything, and he forbade anything to be written down, it is known that like the Orphic religion that Pythagoras taught secretly the origins of the gods and the ritual methods by which one could obtain an eternal life as a god. While his religion was secret and thus could be subject to mistrust, this was not unknown to and was even accepted by the Greeks who had their own versions of mystery religions. As the Orphic religion contained many elements from Greece, it also spoke of Greek gods.  Pythagoras further Hellenized his own religion by focusing his god studies upon Pithain Apollo who was the oracle and prophetic deity version of the god who resided over Greece's most famous and respected Oracle of Delphi. Now Pythagoras had always been viewed as a magnanimous and generous person, he was welcomed everywhere he went.  Pythagoras began to build communities based upon his teaching, some believe that these communities operated on a system of semi-communism.  However the Pythagorean system was not imperialistic or intrusive and the Pythagoreans came to be known as responsible and peaceful people who were exceedingly socially advanced. Pythagoras' communities are said to have had an almost other worldly height of organization an prosperity, the peaceful  nature of their lives was marked by vegetarianism, so profound was their nearly exclusive hold over this diet that for many centuries the vegetarian diet was referred to as the Pythagorean diet. They were said to be "masters of drugs".

However something began to happen which no historian or philosopher had ever been able to explain to me.  Seemingly from nowhere, and for absolutely no reason, the Greek people began violently attacking Pythagoras and his community. Pythagoras and his followers were expelled from the first community they create by the Greeks, and when they set up their community once again in another area of Greece they were once again what seems to have been unreasonable attacked and driven out.  This persecution continued until Pythagoras and his community had to flee to Italy in order to escape pogroms, however this persecution continued and the Pythagoreans were hunted throughout Italy.  The end of Pythagoras and his followers comes in many versions but they are all indicative of the insane hatred both the usually tolerant pagan Greeks and Romans had for this sect; in some versions they were all trapped in a building which was burned down, in another version they took refuge in a temple to escape the mobs where they starved to death after 40 days, some say that Pythagoras witnessed all of his students murdered and than killed himself, other say that he was hunted down by crowds and killed. Whatever the truth is it's obvious that there was some sort of almost mythical hate for the Pythagoreans. After his death the remnants of his students were driven underground and his teaching were banned in many city states.  Today it is believed there is no complete understanding of what Pythagoras taught as his religion was a secret, and though there eventually did spring up schools of neo-Pythagoreanism, these probably did not contain all of the original elements.

So what happened?  Why can't historians and philosophers seem to provide a theory on this seemingly  unexplainable chapter in hstory? There is a phenomena which has always existed in the world and which all people must admit, and that is often times valid theories about life, nature and history are not explained first by learned and logical scholars but are first introduced into society by secretive sects of occultists who rely upon irrational means to produce their theories. While these theories are probably not always 100% sound, they often give the more scholarly classes of society a direction to go in which they eventually find more hard evidence which backs up these interpretations which cannot be explained as anything else but oracular. While I have never ever seen it published or explained anywhere, I myself have heard tale of why the pagans hated Pythagoras, but not from pagans, this comes from the deepest recesses of the most fanatically purist esoteric schools of Christianity.

Before I present the theory as it was explained to me, lets go back to the founding of  Pythagoreanism which had its origins in the Orphic religion which likely had its origins in Hinduism.  As I already stated, the Orphic religion did speak of the gods, however it more so proclaimed to understand their origins.  Their is an interested myth about the death of the Orphic religion's founder Orpheus who was a mystic poet; according to one theory, which would be hard to believe arose out of the Orphic religion itself but was more probably promulgated by the Greeks, Orpheus was killed by Zeus himself for lying about the origins of the gods. The ancient Greek religion took the same position on the gods as the Vedas do, that the gods did not create the universe but came out of the universe by some means which no one knows, not even the gods, and it is usually believed that no one can know. Also relevant is the fact that the rituals of Hinduism and the rest of the pagan world were not necessarily hidden with paranoid secrecy as these were only part of the mechanism which would lead one to godhood, the stress was not solely on ritual purity but a devotion to and an understanding of the gods, which was admittedly an inferior knowledge to the entire universe itself, but it was proclaimed to be the highest form of knowledge one could obtain; it was god knowledge or nothing.

Now the theory of the abstruse Christians on the cause of the Pythagorean holocaust is this, the ultimate teaching of Pythagoras was that one did not need to go through the gods to obtain immortality as even the gods did not know the full reality of the universe. According to this theory, Pythagoras himself had learned from the Orphic religion but then expanded upon it extensively himself that certain seemingly preposterous and nonsensical logic and ritual action would some how be transmuted within the practitioner via some incomprehensible method into a scientific and mathematical understanding of the universe which explained its nature above and beyond what the gods could.  All one need to do is follow these what seem to be crazy advises, rituals and ideas to understand the true scientifically numeric configuration of the world, these will become know to you and you will obtain ultimate power over yourself and the universe, thus becoming not a god but something above the gods. The idea is that Pythagoras had tapped into a line of consciousness which revealed to him knowledge which was above the knowledge which even the highest devotees of the mystery religions of Greece did not possess. The god Zeus murdered the poet Orpheus because he had gone above the gods to get his knowledge and it was obviously superior to what the gods could provide, and so they became fearful and jealous and destroyed him. The greatest sin among the Greeks and their gods was "godless magic", magic that came from a source other than the gods, and this was reason to wipe them out, murder and ban them.

We should look at a few things we might be able to glean from those sects of Pythagoreanism which rose once again in Europe some time after Pythagora's death but which were seemingly less frightening and offensive to the Europeans and probably because it did not show the same level of physical power that . Now it is known that besides being an occultist Pythagoras was indeed a profound mathematician, however it is not believe that technical mathematics was the basis of his religion, far from it, and while Pythagoras did introduce many mathematical theories to the world, he was not at least directly logically responsible for the mathematical discoveries of his later students. It is believed that hundreds of years later after Pythagoras' death, after the rise of neo-Pythagoreanism which likely did have some underworld connection to Pythagoras' teaching, there came about a very strange but telling life, one Hippasus of  Metapontum, Greece. Next to absolutely nothing is known about Hippasus' life or his beliefs, however he is attributed to discovering irrational numbers, and while this is not an absolute fact, no other person in history has been awarded this merit. Now one could at least assume that if Pythagoras himself believed he could gain mathematical knowledge through absurdity, and he was an extremely accomplished man in the physical world, that if there is any credibility to this historical claim than maybe perhaps Pythagoras had something going for him and Hippasus who had found some of Pythagoras' knowledge was able to use it to come up with a previously unfathomable mathematical truth of the cosmos.  More interesting than this however is it is said that upon hearing Hippasus' theories his fellow neo-Pythagoreans drowned him for his heresy; no less interesting is the alternate theory that not only did Hippasus discover irrational numbers but also knew the util that time unknown construct of a dodecahedron inside a sphere and that he revealed this information to the uninitiated. This brings us back to the genocides against the Pythagoreans in ancient Greece. The obvious conclusion is that the state oracle religions which relied upon their mysticism for guidance recognized that Pythagoras had indeed reached a higher level than any of the former Pagans before him, and these could not be understood by the mystery cults currently in power, Pythagoras was a threat not only to their power, but also the power of their gods. So with this temple priests conspired with the state elites in secret to whip up paid mobs against the Pythagoreans and this is how Pythagoras, his religion and most of his followers died.

But was this the definition of "sorcery" in the Vedas, "godless magic"?  If they had found him would the Vedic heros have hunted down and murdered Pythagoras too?  I love Pythagoras, I love that he led humans to the highest state of truth and power, and I have come to hate the ancient pagan Greeks and the Greek gods for their weakness and ugliness.  I knew that if the religion of the Vedas would have condemned Pythagoras to death that I would not be able to cope with this and not only would I have to leave Hinduism but become its vicious enemy.  You can imagine how my heart sunk while upon researching the Vedas I eventually found that there was indeed a connection between sorcery and godlessness, the sorcerers are condemned for practicing "godless magic" for going above the gods to gain their powers. If this were the last and final testament in the Vedas, if the Hindu gods were so weak and jealous that they could not bear to see humans who had found ways to obtain power above them and not through them, and would have them hunted down, it was the end, I could not stay, I would become a godless sorcerer myself and an enemy of the Vedas.

Let these men, heroes in the fight with foemen, prevail against all godless arts of magic,- These who ipprove the noble song I sing thee. - Rig Veda 7.1.10 

 I will declare the earliest deeds of Indra, and recent acts which Maghavan hath accomplished. When he had conquered godless wiles and magic, Soma became his own entire possession. - Rig Veda 7.98.5 

The Vrtra-slaver with his bolt felled Vrtra: the magic of the godless, waxen mighty, Here hast thou, Bold Assailant, boldly conquered. Yea, then thine arms, O Maghavan, were potent.- Rig Veda 10.111.6 

With great radiance Agni shineth;
All things doth he reveal by his might;
He overcometh godless and malign enchantments
He sharpeneth his horns to pierce the Raksas.
s Let the roarings of Agni rise to the heaven,
Sharp weapons to slay the Raksas;
In the carouse his radiance bursteth forth
The godless assailers cannot restrain him. - Yajur Veda 1.2.14.r

But there is a saying from the Vedas, "neither this nor that", the only reason I have ever been able to stay in Hinduism is because every time I come across ideas I do not like, even if they seem to be overwhelmingly pervasive, there is absolutely always a contradiction somewhere which saves the religion for me. There is a prayer in the Rig Veda where an Arya asks the god Agni to come down to his sacrifice.  The man tells Agni that he has become a god because he has learned the art of immortality from the godless. He explains that even though he has been a worshiper of the gods for some time that he is now abandoning his gracious friends and kin and is going to take up life among strangers, presumably the godless sorcerers whom have taught him this magic. He tell Agni that he has been taught by other lineages many rules of "Law and Order", meaning he has learned new secrets about the laws of the universe which even the Vedic gods do not know.  He states that the gods as in relation to him have lost their magic power and he is bidding farewell to the "Great God" and will be obtaining to his share of immortality without worship.  But the once Arya and now godless sorcerer invites the god Varuna, who is the god of natural order, if he loves his former devotee and wants to discern truth and right from falsehood, he is welcome to come along with him and rule his new kingdom. This new sorcerer king's sages will send their wisdom to the heavens to Varuna if he only hold back his violence and that the sorcerers and the gods will both bask together in the knowledge of the god head. As the gods need oblations and worship to survive, the sorcerer king promises his people will serve them. As this prayer has been recorded in the Vedas it is obvious that the Hindu gods made the right choice and did not murder the sorcerer but accepted his offer and learned their ways.

1. COME to this sacrifice of ours, O Agni, threefold, with seven threads and five divisions. Be our oblation-bearer and preceder: thou hast lain long enough in during darkness. 2 I come a God foreseeing from the godless to immortality by secret pathways, While I, ungracious one, desert the gracious, leave mine own friends and seek the kin of strangers. 3 1, looking to the guest of other lineage, have founded many a rule of Law and Order. I bid farewell to the Great God, the Father, and, for neglect, obtain my share of worship. 4 I tarried many a year within this altar: I leave the Father, for my choice is Indra. Away pass Agni, Varuna and Soma. Rule ever changes: this I come to favour. 5 These Asuras have lost their powers of magic. But thou, O Varuna, if thou dost love me, O King, discerning truth and right from falsehood, come and be Lord and Ruler of my kingdom. 6 Here is the light of heaven, here allis lovely; here there is radiance, here is air's wide region. Let us two slaughter Vrtra. Forth, O Soma! Thou art oblation: we therewith will serve thee. 7 The Sage hath fixed his form by wisdom in the heavens: Varuna with no violence let the waters flow. Like women-folk, the floods that bring prosperity have eau lit his hue and colour as they gleamed and shone. 8 These wait upon his loftiest power and vigour: he dwells in these who triumph in their Godhead; And they, like people who elect their ruler, have in abhorrence turned away from Vrtra. 9 They call him Swan, the abhorrent floods' Companion, moving in friendship with celestial Waters. The poets in their thought have looked on Indra swiftly approaching when Anustup calls him. - Rig Veda 10.124.1-5 

After this incidence at the end of the Rig Veda we see a new found tolerance for witchcraft in the next Veda, the Yajurveda, which is the book of rituals, and it is rituals which the godless sorcerers use to gain their godless knowledge of the universe. The gods now partake in and help the sorcerers in their witchcraft and even allow them to invert and invent new rituals. The war between the gods and sorcerers has ended because the Vedic gods were wise and strong enough to admit they were deficient and had much to learn from the sorcerers who had god above them to obtain knowledge, knowledge which even the gods themselves did not know, and so now I am convinced that unlike Zeus and the Greek pagans, Hindus have made their peace with the sorcerers and have come together with them to make the Vedas stronger and more true than ever before.

 When practising witchcraft, he should offer a hornless (beast) to Brahmanaspati - Yajur Veda 2.1.5 

 He who practises witchcraft should offer a red (cow) to Rudra - Yajur Veda 2.1.7

He who practises witchcraft should offer to Brahmanaspati (a cow) with brown ears; first he should make to Varuna an offering on ten potsherds; verily he causes Varuna to seize his foe and lays him low with the Brahman. It has brown ears; that is the symbol of the Brahman; (verily it serves) for prosperity. - Yajur Veda 2.1.8

 They should be offered in inverse order by one who is practising witchcraft; so he fastens on his breaths from in front, and then at pleasure lays him low  - Yajur Veda 3.4.8

 I am a Vedic supremacist because the Vedas bring us to the highest form of power and truth, I am convinced more than ever of this.  I have often been chastised for advising that we not only not entangle ourselves with other pagans but assert that the Vedas are above them and do all in our power to convert them or wipe them out.  I used to have respect for the ancient Greeks, but now I hate them more than even the Israelites of the Bible.  It was the Vedic god's humility and intelligence to see and understand what they did not know which gave the Vedic religion the strength to withstand to this day, all the other pagan religions of the earth had disappeared for very good reasons, they are inferior and will never survive. I am glad that I have finally found my true place in Hinduism, I can be a godless sorcerer and a friend of the gods.